{"id":699720,"date":"2025-05-02T10:00:00","date_gmt":"2025-05-02T08:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/numero.com\/?p=699720"},"modified":"2026-04-01T11:32:04","modified_gmt":"2026-04-01T09:32:04","slug":"interview-with-arthur-jafa-legend-of-contemporary-art-celebrated-at-bourse-de-commerce","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/numero.com\/en\/art-design\/numero-art-en\/interview-with-arthur-jafa-legend-of-contemporary-art-celebrated-at-bourse-de-commerce\/","title":{"rendered":"Interview with Arthur Jafa, legend of contemporary art celebrated at Bourse de Commerce"},"content":{"rendered":"\n
\"Arthur\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\n\t\t\t<\/svg>\n\t\t<\/button>
Arthur Jafa photographed by Katja Rahlwes in his exhibition at the Bourse de commerce for the cover of
Num\u00e9ro art<\/em> 16<\/em>.<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n

Cyrus Goberville: Black music has always played a key role in your work. You featured techno legend Robert Hood in your 2013 APEX, Kanye West\u2019s Ultralight Beam in the 2016 Love is The Message, the Message is Death, Future\u2019s Mask Off in The White Album in 2018, Al Green that same year in akingdoncomethas, and a transposed version of the R&B band Rose Royce in your 2021 film AGHDRA. How would you define “Black music”? \nArthur Jafa:\u00a0<\/strong>I think it\u2019s a result of the confrontation of African ways of seeing the world with the Western understanding of time and space. Black music was the dominant cultural form of the 20th century. If you look at the reach of Black music, it\u2019s not just Black folks who like Black music \u2013 that\u2019s the thing. Black music is a product of the West. If you look at traditional African music, which is incredibly diverse, you can\u2019t reduce it to one thing.<\/p><\/p>\n\n\n\n

When you say “Black music”, everybody understands that it grew out of or evolved from traditional African music. But at the same time, I could mention 1,000 things that don\u2019t sound like anything you ever heard in traditional African music. Even when you say Black music, would you ever confuse Billie Holiday with Jimi Hendrix, or Jimi Hendrix with John Coltrane, or John Coltrane with Jay-Z? There are a zillion things that fit under this umbrella we call Black music. So trying to understand Black music is just another form of trying to understand Blackness. Because it is not the only, but certainly the most prominent, expression of Black people\u2019s existential experiences in the West.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"\"\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\n\t\t\t<\/svg>\n\t\t<\/button>
Arthur Jafa,
Love is the Message, the Message is Death <\/em>(2016). Video (colour, sound), 7’25 min. View of the exhibition \u201cCorps et \u00e2mes\u201d, Bourse de Commerce \u2013 Pinault Collection, Paris, 2025. \u00a9 Arthur Jafa. Photo: Florent Michel \/ Pinault Collection.<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n
\"Arthur\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\n\t\t\t<\/svg>\n\t\t<\/button>
Arthur Jafa photographes by Katja Rahlwes in his exhibition at the Bourse de commerce for
Num\u00e9ro art<\/em>.<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n

How would you describe the complex relationship between your work and music? \n<\/strong>Sometimes I have a slightly ambivalent relationship to music in my work, because it feels like the music is so powerful. It\u2019s almost like you could just put the music over anything and it would be interesting, literally. When you find an artifact and don\u2019t know how old the artifact is, they do carbon dating. I almost feel that putting the music alongside visual stuff is a weird kind of carbon dating. I hate to use the word \u201cauthenticity,\u201d but the power and the depth of what\u2019s happening in the visual thing is marked by how that music is tracked alongside it. That happened with akingdoncomethas, because, at a certain point early on, I was like, \u201cOh, you think this art stuff is doing something? Let me show you what doing something really looks like. It looks like Le\u2019Andria Johnson, it looks like Al Green<\/em>.\u201d<\/p><\/p>\n\n\n\n

\n

\u201cThere\u2019s no contemporary pop music that\u2019s not Black. \n<\/em><\/strong>It\u2019s just all Black music at this point.\u201d <\/em>\u2013 Arthur Jafa.<\/strong><\/p><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n

Those are my metrics. I mean, I love Bruce Nauman and Marcel Duchamp. There are so many artists I love, but at the end of the day, do I love them the way I love Al Green? No, not really. I can lie to other people, but I don\u2019t lie to myself. If I look at my work, I say, \u201cIs my work actually doing this?\u201d And 99% of the time, it\u2019s not. But it\u2019s what I aspire to.<\/p><\/p>\n\n\n\n

On some level, Love is the Message, the Message is Death<\/em> just tapped it. But I feel like I\u2019m constantly trying to make things that wouldn\u2019t pale next to almost any Black music. And when I say any Black music, I mean everything from Kanye to Bob Dylan<\/a>. You know what I mean? There\u2019s no contemporary pop music that\u2019s not Black. It\u2019s just all Black music at this point. There\u2019s all this incredible music in the world, but when you talk about pop music, you\u2019re talking about Black music, whether it\u2019s techno, reggae, or whatever.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"Arthur\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\n\t\t\t<\/svg>\n\t\t<\/button>
Arthur Jafa photographed by Katja Rahlwes in his exhibition at the Bourse de commerce for the cover of
Num\u00e9ro art<\/em>.<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n

You worked with Stanley Kubrick<\/a> on his last <\/strong>movie Eyes Wide Shut<\/em> (1999). Was the use of <\/strong>music in your work in any way influenced by <\/strong>Kubrick\u2019s soundtracks? \n<\/strong>The monolith scene in 2001: A Space Odyssey<\/em> is maybe the earliest instance I can think of where a filmmaker used classical music to accompany images. It\u2019s a great archive of the difference between sound and image. There\u2019s always a satirical edge with Kubrick: the music is outside of the image you\u2019re looking at. In his films, like A Clockwork Orange<\/em>, or even Barry Lyndon<\/em>, where the music is period accurate, the way the soundtrack works in relationship to the narrative is super sarcastic.<\/p><\/p>\n\n\n\n

That\u2019s also true of Full Metal Jacket, where in a very strange way you can\u2019t remember the music at all \u2013 the only thing I remember is the soldiers singing, and when they sing Mickey Mouse, I know there must be music in it, but it almost feels like Robert Bresson, where music is absent.<\/p><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Just like the scene at the train-station in Lyon in Bresson\u2019s film Pickpocket<\/em> (1959), entirely cadenced by footsteps.<\/strong> \nThat\u2019s all you\u2019re hearing. You just hear the small details that make it work. It\u2019s funny, I\u2019m more identifying myself with Bresson, even though in my videos I use music in a very emotional way, to create an atmosphere. I don\u2019t like this in cinema so much \u2013 that whole idea of music telling you how to think from moment to moment.<\/p><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kubrick doesn\u2019t do that. His use of music is really different, almost an authorial realm to cast what you see in a certain light. With him it\u2019s very rare to see the music underlining the character\u2019s emotions in any literal way. Versus, say, Scorsese, who uses music in a much more embedded way \u2013 if you think of Mean Streets<\/em> or Taxi Driver<\/em>, you feel the music is atmospheric more than anything.<\/p><\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"Arthur\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\n\t\t\t<\/svg>\n\t\t<\/button>
Arthur Jafa,
Love is the Message, the Message is Death <\/em>(2016). Video (couleur, son), 7’25 minutes. View of the exhibition \u201cCorps et \u00e2mes\u201d, Bourse de Commerce \u2013 Pinault Collection, Paris, 2025. \u00a9 Arthur Jafa. \u00a9 Tadao Ando Architect & Associates, Niney and Marca Architectes, Pierre-Antoine Gatier Agency. Photo: Nicolas Brasseur \/ Pinault Collection.<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n

Talking of Taxi Driver<\/em> (1976), you showed the <\/strong>ambitious ***** <\/em>in 2024. This work is\u00a0remake of one of the final <\/strong>scenes in Scorsese\u2019s movie, where Travis <\/strong>Bickle [played by Robert De Niro] shoots <\/strong>people in an East Village brothel to save Iris [Jodie Foster]<\/strong>. You told me once <\/strong>that Bernard Hermann\u2019s soaring, saxophone-<\/strong>led score echoed John Coltrane\u2019s Naima<\/em> (1959) so <\/strong>closely it could have been directly lifted from it. \n<\/strong>When I was working on *****<\/em>, I didn\u2019t really think about that so much, because the parts I\u2019m looking at don\u2019t use that music, which is primarily heard when Travis Bickle is driving the car. In *****<\/em>, it\u2019s mainly just him pulling up, going in, and doing the shooting. But to me, it was all part of how insidious and complicated the relationship with Black people is in this movie. You take John Coltrane and you take him out in a way \u2013 you make him disappear.<\/p><\/p>\n\n\n\n

\n

\u201cRecords are time machines.\u201d<\/em> \u2013 Arthur Jafa.<\/strong><\/p><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n

On a similar note, in the original movie, the <\/strong>pimp Sport, played by Harvey Keitel, is white. <\/strong>When you discovered that the film\u2019s <\/strong>screenwriter, Paul Schrader, had intended <\/strong>Sport to be African American, you decided to <\/strong>\u201crestore\u201d the movie by introducing Black <\/strong>actors, except for Robert De Niro and Jodie Foster. \n<\/strong>They switched the colors. I\u2019ve definitely had friends of mine, Black folks, be like, \u201cWhy would you want to make the film so the right people are getting killed?<\/em>\u201d My reply is that, first of all, I was just trying to make the film be true to itself and not be this confusing or contradictory artifact \u2013 to make it an artifact that says what it believes, even if that\u2019s fucked up. You can see it for what it is, as opposed to being subjected to these strategies that are basically about destabilizing your understanding of what you\u2019re looking at.<\/p><\/p>\n\n\n\n

This intervention has a French word: d\u00e9tournement<\/em>. The thing I tried to do was really about correcting it, or taking parts out so you can reveal what it truly is. One person said, \u201cOh, it\u2019s like Dylann Roof<\/em>\u201d [the white-supremacist who, in 2015, carried out a mass killing in a Black church in Charleston]. But it was always like Dylann Roof! It just got complicated because in the end Travis Bickle goes into a white church.<\/p><\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"Monster\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\n\t\t\t<\/svg>\n\t\t<\/button>
Arthur Jafa,
Monster<\/em> (1988\/2018). Gelatine silver print mounted on aluminium. View of the exhibition \u201cCorps et \u00e2mes\u201d, Bourse de Commerce \u2013 Pinault Collection, Paris, 2025. \u00a9 Arthur Jafa. \u00a9 Tadao Ando Architect & Associates, Niney and Marca Architectes, Pierre-Antoine Gatier Agency. Photo: Nicolas Brasseur \/ Pinault Collection.<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n
\"\"\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\n\t\t\t<\/svg>\n\t\t<\/button>
Arthur Jafa,
AGHDRA<\/em> (2021). Video 4K (sound, colour and black and white). 1 hour 14 min. 59 sec. View of the exhibition \u201cCorps et \u00e2mes\u201d, Bourse de Commerce \u2013 Pinault Collection, Paris, 2025.  \u00a9 Arthur Jafa. Photo: Florent Michel \/ Pinault Collection.<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n

I\u2019ve been obsessed with Stevie Wonder <\/strong>records since I saw ******<\/em>! Why did you use his <\/strong>song As<\/em>, which is so joyful, when the pimp is <\/strong>filmed in the street just before something so <\/strong>dramatic is going to happen? \n<\/strong>In 1976, everybody was listening to Stevie Wonder\u2019s album Songs in the Key of Life<\/em>. I remember that period well \u2013 it was all my family listed to for two whole years, it dominated everything at home! At the end of the day, I think that the song that feels most emblematic of the whole record is As<\/em>. It\u2019s pretty apocalyptic in the biblical sense. Using it in ***** was just a way to say, \u201cHey, look, this <\/em>pimp, you suppose you know what\u2019s going on in his head, <\/em>but you don\u2019t know what\u2019s going on in the Black people\u2019s <\/em>heads<\/em>.\u201d It\u2019s also period accurate, because both Taxi Driver<\/em> and Songs in the Key of Life<\/em> were released in 1976, even though he had been recording it for several years before.<\/p><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Do you listen to new music?<\/strong> \nI\u2019m curious about anything. For years, I\u2019ve been interested in Future. Like somebody said, he may not be the biggest rapper, but he\u2019s more influential than Jay-Z.<\/p><\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"Arthur\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\n\t\t\t<\/svg>\n\t\t<\/button>
Arthur Jafa photographed by Katja Rahlwes in his exhibition at the Bourse de commerce for the cover of
Num\u00e9ro art<\/em>.<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n

You once mentioned that you enjoy Dean Blunt\u2019s music. I had coffee with him four years ago at exactly this same table we\u2019re sitting at, and we had a long discussion about David Hammons and rage in hip-hop. \n<\/strong>The whole trap genre, it\u2019s all about depression, it\u2019s just rage turning inward. It\u2019s not like Public Enemy, which was rage turned out, you know what I mean?<\/p><\/p>\n\n\n\n

I always remember where I bought my records. Do you?<\/strong> \nOh, yeah, totally. Records are time machines.<\/p><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Do you still own a lot of records? \n<\/strong>Yes. There are some I haven\u2019t listed to for 30 years, because I want to write about that period in my life, and I know that if I keep them aside, when I play them they\u2019ll take me right back there. If you play the same music every day, you lose that.<\/p><\/p>\n\n\n\n

There\u2019s this one record by Stevie Wonder called Fulfillingness\u2019 First Finale<\/em>. My dad played it every morning before we went to school. So I don\u2019t want to listen to it until I\u2019m ready to write about that period in my life. I\u2019ve been literally avoiding it, though I\u2019ve heard it once or twice by accident. I don\u2019t want it to lose its power.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Arthur Jafa, exhibition open until August 25th, 2025, at the Bourse de commerce<\/a>, Paris 1st.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"Arthur\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\n\t\t\t<\/svg>\n\t\t<\/button>
Arthur Jafa photographed by Katja Rahlwes in his exhibition at the Bourse de commerce for the cover of
Num\u00e9ro art<\/em>.<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Cyrus Goberville: Black music has always played a key role in your work. You featured […]<\/p>\n

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