{"id":501230,"date":"2022-05-02T00:00:00","date_gmt":"1970-01-01T00:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/numero.com\/art\/numero-art\/meeting-with-glenn-ligon-american-art-legend-currently-exhibited-at-the-carre-dart-in-nimes\/"},"modified":"2022-05-02T00:00:00","modified_gmt":"1970-01-01T00:00:00","slug":"meeting-with-glenn-ligon-american-art-legend-currently-exhibited-at-the-carre-dart-in-nimes","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/numero.com\/en\/art\/numero-art\/meeting-with-glenn-ligon-american-art-legend-currently-exhibited-at-the-carre-dart-in-nimes\/","title":{"rendered":"Meeting with Glenn Ligon, American art legend currently exhibited at the Carr\u00e9 d’art in N\u00eemes"},"content":{"rendered":"

“MALCOLM X WAS CONSIDERED BY THE FBI TO BE ONE OF THE MOST DANGEROUS MEN IN THE UNITED STATES. TODAY YOU CAN BUY A STAMP OF HIM. IT SAYS A LOT ABOUT HOW OUR VIEW OF ICONS CHANGES OVER TIME.”<\/strong><\/p>\r\n\r\n

 <\/p>\r\n\r\n

And what about the Debris Field <\/em>series?<\/strong><\/p>\r\n\r\n


\r\nThis series is the result of a kind of experimentation I was doing with old leather stencils,<\/strong> which I normally use for my text paintings. I realized that so much of my work has been about taking text toward abstraction, but what if I started with the letterforms themselves, and took them directly to abstraction? What if I drew through plastic letter stencils with ink to see what shapes are formed? When I use ink as a material, it doesn\u2019t retain the contours of the stencil, instead creating a distorted shape. What fascinated me was the idea of inventing a language, inventing a new form out of the letters themselves, and these paintings are much more improvisational because of that. They aren\u2019t bound by lines of text or quotations but are much more about improvisation and composition.<\/p>\r\n\r\n

 <\/p>\r\n\r\n

In the same way I often start with Baldwin\u2019s text or a kids\u2019 colouring book<\/strong>, the process of making the Debris Field <\/em>series started with source material. About five or six years ago, I made a set of etchings that I realized would make a good base composition for the Debris Field<\/em> paintings. I took one of those prints to a silkscreener, had it blown up in scale dramatically and silkscreened it on canvas using etching ink, which is very stiff and creates voids and gaps, resulting in a ghostly appearance at times because the ink is not getting through the screen properly. Those were the first iterations of these paintings, in black and white, that I showed at the Thomas Dane Gallery in Naples in 2018. But then I wanted to work on them some more and realized I could make stencils of the abstract shapes in those paintings and then go back into them and stencil on top of the silkscreen.<\/p>\r\n\r\n

 <\/p>\r\n\r\n

The Debris Fields<\/em> paintings in N\u00eemes include both the earliest iterations of those,<\/strong> which are mostly pure silkscreen with ink marker drawn on top, as well as the latest iterations with red back- grounds, with stencilled oil stick or etching ink on top of what had already been laid on the canvas. In that sense, they are much more like the traditional abstract paintings I used to make when I was first thinking about becoming an artist, in that I am really thinking about things like composition, whereas in text paintings there is a pre-existing structure. In some ways these works were more difficult to do, because I haven\u2019t been engaged with those kinds of painterly decisions for a while. But there is also a kind of freeing up or liberation that occurs.<\/p>\r\n\n

\n \"\"\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\n\t\t\t<\/svg>\n\t\t<\/button>\n
Glenn Ligon \u00a9 Dana Scruggs<\/figcaption>\n <\/figure>\n \n

Huey Copeland: As is often the case in your work, the pieces in your N\u00eemes exhibition were produced by revisiting, quoting or annotating pre-existing visual and linguistic utterances, including your own. Could you talk more broadly about this creative process, and how it shaped some of the works in the show, such as the colouring-book series?<\/strong><\/p>\r\n\r\n

Glenn Ligon: <\/strong>Much of my work is citational in nature. For example, regarding the colouring-book works, I gave Afrocentric colouring-book images from the late 60s and early 70s to young kids, and I then used their inventiveness \u2013 the way they coloured those images in \u2013 to reflect on the distance between childhood creativity and its lack of boundaries around icons, and what is considered acceptable to do to a portrait. It\u2019s a way of thinking about my own subjectivity, what I know about an image of Malcolm X, and all the historical engagement I bring to that image versus what a child might see, and how they\u2019re going to react to and use that same image. In the same way, when I go back to my earlier work, I always try to approach it with a fresh eye. There is always a form of circularity in my practice. For my Stranger paintings<\/em>, I look to James Baldwin\u2019s 1953 essay Stranger in the Village<\/em> and return to it repeatedly to create a series of works, one of which is included in the N\u00eemes show. This particular painting incorporates the full text of Baldwin\u2019s essay and is the first time I\u2019ve used it in its entirety, resulting in a canvas that\u2019s almost 14 m long. It took me 20 years to get to this point, and that sense of working up to something is part of my practice.<\/p>\r\n\r\n

 <\/p>\r\n\r\n

 <\/p>\r\n\r\n

\u201cPainting has always been a touchstone for me, but I often find that I need to turn to other media in order to be able to deal with particular subjects more effectively.\u201d<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\r\n\r\n

 <\/p>\r\n\r\n

 <\/p>\r\n\r\n

This moves you away from a painting on the scale of the portrait or the body, and brings you into dialogue with a radically different, though just as rich, American pictorial tradition.<\/strong><\/p>\r\n\r\n

This approach probably comes from my memory of the early giants of American painting \u2013 Jackson Pollock and Franz Kline, and Abstract Expressionism as a whole. But I am also deeply inspired and moved by the work of African-American artists Jack Whitten and Sam Gilliam, and the size of their paintings, their ambition in terms of what they were trying to address in their work through abstraction. When I was working on the Stranger paintings<\/em>, I kept going to MoMA to see a Jack Whitten painting from the permanent collection. And every time I went, I found it different. That\u2019s when I thought I wanted to paint something that would keep you coming back, just as I kept coming back to Baldwin\u2019s Stranger in the Village<\/em>.<\/p>\r\n\n

\n \"\"\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\n\t\t\t<\/svg>\n\t\t<\/button>\n
Glenn Ligon, \u201cStranger (full text) #1\u201d (2020-2021). Photo: Jon Etter. Glenn Ligon. Courtesy of the artist; Hauser&Wirth, New York; Regen Projects, Los Angeles; Thomas Dane Gallery, London and Galerie Chantal Crousel, Paris.\r\n\r\n<\/figcaption>\n <\/figure>\n \n \n
\n
\"\"\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\n\t\t\t<\/svg>\n\t\t<\/button>\n
Glenn Ligon, \u201cUntitled (America)\u201d (2019). Photo : Martin Argyroglo. Courtesy of the artist and Galerie Chantal Crousel, Paris.\r\n<\/figcaption>\n <\/figure>\n \n

You are mostly known \u2013 and rightly so \u2013 as a painter, but your exhibition in N\u00eemes also includes other media such as neons and video that seem to redefine and broaden our understanding of the conventional pictorial dichotomies that are figure\/ground, gesture\/composition, image\/object, and so on. What does this prolifer- ation of techniques allow you to do that painting alone does not?<\/strong><\/p>\r\n\r\n

Generally speaking, I position myself first and foremost as a painter, but I realize that my painting practice is somewhat limited, though maybe it is only a limit of my own imagination. When I work with neon or with a film installation, I see these media as ways to do things that are not suitable for a painting project, or that I have not been able to approach through painting. I think of media as materials, in the same way that paint or even language are materials. The Americaneons<\/em>, several of which are on view in N\u00eemes, encapsulate my thinking about the word itself as a material to be used, to be painted black, to be flipped horizontally, to be turned against the wall or to be flipped upside down. These neons have a connection to the painted word and the way language appears in my paintings, but they also allow me to move into the realm of sculpture. For me, painting has always been a touchstone, but I often find that I need to turn to other media in order to be able to deal with particular subjects more effectively.<\/p>\r\n\r\n

 <\/p>\r\n\r\n

 <\/p>\r\n\r\n

\u201cIn the 1960s, the FBI labelled Malcolm X one of the most dangerous men in the US. But today, you can buy a stamp with Malcolm X\u2019s image on it in any post office in America. This says a lot about how our view of icons changes over time.\u201d<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\r\n\r\n

 <\/p>\r\n\r\n

 <\/p>\r\n\r\n

In your N\u00eemes show, several works depict American icons or reproduce their images, for example Malcolm X. Others, notably the Debris Field series, seem to want to break up the visual field \u2013 not to mention the \u201cicons\u201d that could emerge from it. Could you tell us more about this dialectic of recognition and fragmentation, and explain how it serves as a kind of critical strategy?<\/strong>
\r\nLike language, icons are constantly being made and re- made, and this idea has always been an operating principle in my work. For example, taking a word like \u201cAmerica\u201d and using it as a material to be twisted, distorted, played with, or obscured. Or taking an icon like Malcolm X in order to think about how we treat the image of an iconic figure, how we choose to revise that image. What defines a historical moment? How was an image of Malcolm X perceived then as opposed to now? In the 1960s, the FBI labelled him one of the most dangerous men in the US. But today, you can buy a stamp with Malcolm X\u2019s image on it in any post office in America. This says a lot about how our view of icons changes over time.<\/p>\r\n\n

\n \"\"\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\n\t\t\t<\/svg>\n\t\t<\/button>\n
Glenn Ligon \u00a9 Dana Scruggs<\/figcaption>\n <\/figure>\n \n \n
\n
\"\"\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\n\t\t\t<\/svg>\n\t\t<\/button>\n
Glenn Ligon, \u201cDebris Field\u201d #6 (2018). Photo : Ronald Amstutz. \u00a9 Glenn Ligon. Courtesy of the artist; Hauser&Wirth, New York; Regen Projects, Los Angeles; Thomas Dane Gallery, Londres and Galerie Chantal Crousel, Paris.<\/figcaption>\n <\/figure>\n \n

And what about the Debris Field <\/em>series?<\/strong><\/p>\r\n\r\n

This series is the result of a kind of experimentation I was doing with old leather stencils,<\/strong> which I normally use for my text paintings. I realized that so much of my work has been about taking text toward abstraction, but what if I started with the letterforms themselves, and took them directly to abstraction? What if I drew through plastic letter stencils with ink to see what shapes are formed? When I use ink as a material, it doesn\u2019t retain the contours of the stencil, instead creating a distorted shape. What fascinated me was the idea of inventing a language, inventing a new form out of the letters themselves, and these paintings are much more improvisational because of that. They aren\u2019t bound by lines of text or quotations but are much more about improvisation and composition. In the same way I often start with Baldwin\u2019s text or a kids\u2019 colouring book, the process of making the Debris Field <\/em>series started with source material. About five or six years ago, I made a set of etchings that I realized would make a good base composition for the Debris Field<\/em> paintings. I took one of those prints to a silkscreener, had it blown up in scale dramatically and silkscreened it on canvas using etching ink, which is very stiff and creates voids and gaps, resulting in a ghostly appearance at times because the ink is not getting through the screen properly.<\/p>\r\n\r\n

 <\/p>\r\n\r\n

 <\/p>\r\n\r\n

\u201cWhat fascinated me with the <\/strong><\/em>Debris Field <\/strong>series was the idea of inventing a language, inventing a new form out of the letters themselves, and these paintings are much more improvisational because of that.\u201d<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\r\n\r\n

 <\/p>\r\n\r\n

 <\/p>\r\n\r\n

Those were the first iterations of these paintings, in black and white, that I showed at the Thomas Dane Gallery in Naples in 2018. But then I wanted to work on them some more and realized I could make stencils of the abstract shapes in those paintings and then go back into them and stencil on top of the silkscreen. The Debris Fields<\/em> paintings in N\u00eemes include both the earliest iterations of those, which are mostly pure silkscreen with ink marker drawn on top, as well as the latest iterations with red backgrounds, with stencilled oil stick or etching ink on top of what had already been laid on the canvas. In that sense, they are much more like the traditional abstract paintings I used to make when I was first thinking about becoming an artist, in that I am really thinking about things like composition, whereas in text paintings there is a pre-existing structure. In some ways these works were more difficult to do, because I haven\u2019t been engaged with those kinds of painterly decisions for a while. But there is also a kind of freeing up or liberation that occurs.<\/p>\r\n\n

\n \"\"\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\n\t\t\t<\/svg>\n\t\t<\/button>\n
Glenn Ligon, \u201cDouble America\u201d (2012). Photo : Farzad Owrang. \u00a9 Glenn Ligon. Courtesy of the artist; Hauser&Wirth, New York; Regen Projects, Los Angeles; Thomas Dane Gallery, Londres and Galerie Chantal Crousel, Paris<\/figcaption>\n <\/figure>\n \n \n
\n
\"\"\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\n\t\t\t<\/svg>\n\t\t<\/button>\n
Glenn Ligon, \u201cHands\u201d (1996). Photo : Brian Forrest, Regen Projects. \u00a9 Glenn Ligon. Courtesy of the artist ; Hauser & Wirth, New York ; Regen Projects, Los Angeles ; Thomas Dane Gallery, Londres and Galerie Chantal Crousel Paris <\/figcaption>\n <\/figure>\n \n

How do you think your work will be received by the French public in N\u00eemes?<\/strong>
\r\nIn some ways, <\/strong>it is a bold move to dedicate an entire room to America <\/em>neons in a French institution. But I\u2019m interested to see how a French audience might receive this work. People know I\u2019m American and that my concerns are largely \u201cAmerican\u201d concerns. Going back to James Baldwin, there is a documentary called From Another Place<\/em> that follows him through the streets of Istanbul. At one point, he sees American warships in the distance, and we hear him say, \u201cAh, it\u2019s impossible to escape American power.\u201d There it is, that power, out in the distance. In one sense, I feel that, wherever you are in the world, you must somehow grapple with America. But I\u2019m also interested in seeing how all of this will translate into the local context. What the exhibition means in that particular space could be very different from my own intentions, so naturally I\u2019m curious. And guiding the idea of Post-Noir <\/em>as the title rather than Post-Black<\/em> is the question of translation that runs through the exhibition. There is currently a lot of debate in France about the ques- tion of francit\u00e9<\/em> and what Black identity means there. I want the visitor to think about how what I do enages with the cultural struggles of our time.<\/p>\r\n\r\n

 <\/p>\r\n\r\n

 <\/p>\r\n\r\n

Glenn Ligon, \u201cPost-Noir\u201d, from June 24th to November 20th. Glenn Ligon is represented in Paris by the Chantal Crousel Gallery.<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\r\n\n

\n \"\"\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\n\t\t\t<\/svg>\n\t\t<\/button>\n
Glenn Ligon, \u201cDebris Field (red) #20\u201d (2021). Photo : Lewis Ronald. \u00a9 Glenn Ligon. Courtesy of the artist; Hauser&Wirth, New York; Regen Projects, Los Angeles; Thomas Dane Gallery, Londres et Galerie Chantal Crousel Paris<\/figcaption>\n <\/figure>\n \n ","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

“MALCOLM X WAS CONSIDERED BY THE FBI TO BE ONE OF THE MOST DANGEROUS MEN […]<\/p>\n

Read More… from Meeting with Glenn Ligon, American art legend currently exhibited at the Carr\u00e9 d’art in N\u00eemes<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":0,"featured_media":501212,"comment_status":"","ping_status":"","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"inline_featured_image":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[3084],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-501230","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-numero-art"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"\nGlenn Ligon<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/numero.com\/en\/art\/numero-art\/meeting-with-glenn-ligon-american-art-legend-currently-exhibited-at-the-carre-dart-in-nimes\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" 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